It All Starts With Risk Management

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Sungarden Investors Club’ Rob Isbitts shares why all investing starts with proper risk management (0:45). Navigating risk in different sectors and markets (5:00). Disney’s dog collar (13:30). Managing risk in the current environment, including technical analysis (20:50). Strategy risks (30:00).

Transcript

Rena Sherbill: Our friend, Rob Isbitts, who runs Sungarden Investment Publishing and Sungarden Investors Club on Seeking Alpha, welcome back to the show. Always great to talk to you.

Rob Isbitts: Oh, same here, Rena. Great to be with you. What a time. I always say that, but I think I really mean it this time.

RS: Definitely. What’s the blessing and the curse? May you live in interesting times? Definitely, a lot of things afoot to discuss. I’ll let you decide where to start and how broad you wanna go.

But in general, what’s your broad take on the markets in this moment? How are you thinking about things? How are you figuring out the risks that may be coming, that may not be coming, that may be promised, that may not happen?

How are you thinking about everything?

RI: Well, I think you start with risk management because that’s what I do all the time.

And I think you also start with how the markets have changed since, really, I would say, beginning of 2021, ’22, somewhere in there, the post pandemic environment as I call it.

The stock market is very different than it used to be. It has different actors, algorithms, indexation, which is the idea that so much money is following indexes that, you know, those are two types of players in the stock market and increasingly in the bond market and other markets too, that they don’t really care what they’re buying, selling.

They’re just doing it based on signals. An index fund buys or sells based on flows into the index, not based on a manager saying, maybe I should buy Amazon (AMZN) today and not Apple (AAPL) in the index. No. They buy the index. And the algorithm, that’s a whole another thing, could be based on social media posts, words in Fed statements, etcetera.

So we we have a a bit of a circus, if you will. And but none of this is a problem. It’s not a problem if you keep a couple things in mind.

And this is what I’ve been writing about, certainly speaking about, and really what we now call Sungarden Investors Club, the investing group that I lead with Seeking Alpha, is really focused on.

There’s so many different ways to manage risk, but the first step is to determine that there is risk.

And that’s where I think that talking about today’s markets, I think that there is as big a dismissal, a blowing off, if you will, of major risk. And in fact, just wrote an article the other day, and, I figured, okay.

Well, people are kinda stuck with me, but if they really want to talk about risk management, I was just taking off of what Jamie Dimon from JPMorgan for a long time has said.

Managing risk as an investor is not because you think it’s going to happen. It’s because it might happen. And so when I look at the stock market, I think this is one of the most deceiving periods we’ve had in history, and I’m happy to profit from it as long as it continues.

However, you’ve got the S&P 500 and especially the Nasdaq and especially the Mag 7 types who’ve really masked the idea that the average stock has kinda gone nowhere for about three, three and a half years.

I can go into a little more detail on that a bit later. And interest rates are moved around by a lot of things now. And now, this year, a lot more of it is due to something that we always thought we might see decades ago. You know, I go back to the eighties, nineties in this stuff.

But right now, we don’t know if US bonds, the belle of the ball in the bond market, and the US dollar are going to be given the same leeway that they have been for a very long time since we’re on the freaking gold standard.

So, I think that kinda sets the stage for there is a lot of risk out there. Even if none of it comes to pass, I think my best advice to people and well, not financial advice, but my best recommendation is to start learning more about how to manage risk.

And I’ve got a ton of ways that I do it, and I’ll seek to put it all in the context of the current markets. So, yeah, do you navigate risk differently depending on what market you’re looking at?

Is the stock market different than the bond market, different than the currency market, different than certain stocks that you’re are there is it sector specific?

RS: If you wanna contextualize how best to navigate the risk element, that’d be awesome.

RI: Sure. The the tools are the same for me. I just apply them differently to different types of markets. And for me, and I put this out every week and I include in a lot of my articles as well.

I’m a technician going back to when I was 16 years old in 1980, and my late, father, was never a professional investor. But he kinda kept himself and my mom going for the last third of his eighty one years, by learning how to chart.

And we used to get this big pack of charts in the in the mail, every Saturday, and I learned to really enjoy that and work with him on it, charting by by, graph paper and pencil back in the days.

Fast forward and, you know, he’s been gone for a while, but, I’m kind of the legacy to that. And and, frankly, the reason I do so much of the work at Seeking Alpha and elsewhere, in my semiretirement is because he only had one student.

That was me. And, I I like the idea of trying to pass more of this on. So, and it’s not like this is the right way to do it.

Everybody has to apply it differently, but it all comes down to this, I think, Rena. You you need to develop a philosophy and a process, and within that, you need to have techniques that you feel you can rely on.

For me, it is the simple yet complex but easy to learn gradually, aspect of the markets that some people call technical analysis. But I’m not into Greek, alphabet stuff, which is why I’m simple when it comes to options and charting. You know, I’m not doing too many lines on my charts and things like that.

At the end of the day, to me, I’ve seen so many, not thousands or 100 thousands, so many millions of charts that I’ve developed, if you will, I think it calls in baseball when you’re when you got, like, a quarter of a second to to figure out, if you’re gonna hit the pitch or not coming at, you know, 100 miles an hour.

They call it a twitch response. And so my twitch response that I’m now formalizing through something I call the ROAR score, reward opportunity and risk, is simply saying, okay. I can look at a chart. It could be the broad market. Obviously, if you look at a lot of charts, you get the same pattern.

You see more and more evidence building up with frequency. And you don’t try to make a decision on everything that comes in front of your desk. As Warren Buffett used to say, I have three trays, in, out, and too tough.

Well, all things are too tough. And, frankly, the the S&P 500 (SP500) right now and the Nasdaq (NDAQ), they’re kind of at that stuck point as we talk here in mid June.

And so as I like to remind myself all the time, you know, no fast moves, Rob. So, you know, it starts with basic understanding that the markets react now to things that they used to not react to.

And so that is a source of risk. And you don’t have to look back any further than, you know, what happened from February 19 to April eighth of this year when the market fell really hard, then it bounced back.

Great. It always has, for the last fifteen, sixteen years. At some point, and I don’t know when, it won’t bounce back. And that’s what I worry about for my baby boomer peers.

So when I’m looking at today’s market and I’m looking at the charts, I’m looking first not for how much money I can make. I am looking for how much risk is attached to my pursuit of profits in this security.

And that’s really what the the ROAR score is about. So example, going back to beginning of 2022, I started kind of formally putting this out.

And this is just my chart read and a bunch of other indicators, sentiment, fundamental, quantitative, the whole thing, thirty some odd years of doing this, all boiling down to a single number.

Like I said, it can be as simple as complex as you like. So for instance, as we sit here, today, once a week, I update this for, subscribers.

The ROAR score is at 40. What does that mean? Well, very simply, my market view specific to the S&P 500 is that if the only two investment options that I have are the S&P 500, the (SPY) ETF, and one to three month T bills. (BIL) is the symbol. Or as I like to call it these days, one big beautiful bill because it’s great for risk management. But it’s very simple paradigm.

Stocks, T bills. And I’ve been doing this for about three and a half years. Well, it’s at 40 right now, which means if my only two choices were SPY and BIL, how much would I have in spy and the rest goes in BIL?

Right now, it’s 40. Over the last three years or so, it’s probably averaged, and it’s conservative tilted because I am, about 25. We have other versions of it that are more aggressive, but the whole idea is you have to look at offense and defense and playing them at the same time.

And so very simply here and I think it’s worth noting because it sounds simple. There’s a lot that goes into it, obviously, and I put a lot of work into this, it’s kinda part of my intellectual property. But, I look back today, for a weekly piece that I put out, and I wanted to see how has this done since the beginning of 2022, simply looking at it once a week and saying, okay. Am I 40% SPY and 60% BIL?

Few months ago, I was down around 10 before the market decline. I’ve had it at zero for the during part of 2022. That was rough. But, it can be all the way up to sixty, seventy, 80, even 100, although it hasn’t been in a long time.

I look back. It’s been three and a half years now since I started tracking this and putting my own money in it because I like eating my own cooking, unless it’s real cooking.

But in the markets, I was a little surprised myself. The average S&P stock over the last three and a half years is, like, spot on what the ROAR score is.

This super conservative approach that says, I will take risk to get return, but I’m not gonna just rely on things working out in the end. A fraction of the risk of the average S&P stock, and it’s equaled it over time.

That’s risk management married with the technicals and trying to put markets in some sort of order, not by how much I can make, but because I can make money anything can go up at any time for any reason. That’s my belief.

Any stock, any ETF, any currency, any commodity, that can happen. But how much risk is attached? And so right now, there’s above average risk in stocks, and the bond market is quite frenetic, for reasons I alluded to before.

US dollar’s probably not helping. But, again, you know, there’s multiple time frames involved too. So that’s a bit about how I come down to this.

And, you know, happy to give you some examples of how I take the ROAR score, as a very basic element of offense and defense at the same time and then go into deeper peels of the onion, if you will.

RS: I think that’s the exact place I wanted to go. I was gonna ask you to give two or three examples of something that you got into and how you use the factors that you described.

If it’s ROAR, if it’s in addition to the ROAR score, everything that you use to either get into and or out of an equity, that’d be awesome.

RI: So, I’ll take a few examples that I’ve actually written about in Seeking Alpha, including one that, by the time this is, published, will certainly have been out there for a bit.

So that is Disney (DIS). So I’ll shortcut it, and if you have any other questions and people can see the article. But look, long story short, you know, Disney is kind of what I call a dog. And I like to do something called a dog collar.

The stock was a dog for a long time. It fell from 200 to about $80 over the course of a few years, waffled up and down a bit. And finally, I got to the point and I’m a big fan of the Dow thirty, so Disney’s a Dow stock, and, you know, this was a good, a a good one to look at.

The chart it to me, it starts with the chart. And look. If I can’t find a lot of good charts, that probably means the market’s gonna not gonna do very well.

I mean, it is kind of a sum of the parts thing. So good example of Disney, and I’ll spare this specific coordinates here. But generally speaking, earlier this year, I saw an opportunity to try to make money on Disney. I sensed there was still a decent amount of risk, and so I did not wanna I would take a small position on anything and trade it.

But this is one I wanna try to own for a longer period of time because there’s at least a fighting chance that this can be a 150, $200 stock again and not a $90 stock like I think it was at the time when I bought it.

Actually, it was in the mid eighties. So I bought the stock, but I didn’t let it go with that. I bought a put option, and I sold a call option. A lot of people sell the covered calls, and I think that that is one of the biggest sources of risk, those covered call ETFs and the buffer ETFs.

The buffer ETFs will protect you more, but it really caps your upside. The covered call ETFs, the (JEPI)s and (JEPQ)s of the world and all that, I am not a fan of those in this market environment.

I don’t think I will be for a while because they leave out the put purchase part. And that’s the part that prevents you from losing a lot of money that at some point, it could be years, maybe a decade before you recapture it.

So this to me is almost like the collar is taking a, that same type of approach but customizing it yourself, which probably any investor with least fifty, a hundred thousand dollars can learn to do.

So going back to Disney, the stock was up in the $85, 90 area. And this was in early February. So I put the collar around it, and it turned out well not because the stock went up, because the stock plummeted again along with the whole market.

And so my put option allowed me to escape with a very small loss. But then it wasn’t maybe a month later where Disney and the market as a whole started to look pretty good again. So I went back into the stock. I collared it again. This time, much better result. Instead of losing a little, I’ve made a lot.

I’m up, I don’t know, 35, 38%, something like that as we speak here. But I keep moving the option collar up. So I’m sitting here at the point now as we speak where the stock, which I bought at 86 is down at a 118.

It didn’t take very long, obviously, with with the whole market doing or a lot of the market doing what it did. But I’ve moved my my put option strike price from the original, $90 all the way up to $110. So for at least for a period of time, this stock could crater on earnings or something like that.

I got a little ticket that says, hey, I can still sell it for 110, which is 30% almost above where I bought it. And it’s better than a stop order because the stop order won’t help you if earnings crater a stock the next morning. We talked about this before. So that’s let’s call it a very complex example using Disney.

Recently, entered (AMD), great price chart, but I am the way I am, and I wanna put a collar around it unless it’s gonna be a very short term trade.

I’ve done this with NVIDIA (NVDA). I’ve done this with Google (GOOG) (GOOGL). I’ve done it with a lot of the Mag seven because I don’t mind the possibility that I’m gonna give up maybe a little bit of upside, and we won’t have enough time here.

But, a lot of people say, well, when you collar stocks, you give up upside above a certain level. And that is only true if they create a law that says you can’t buy more.

To give them the Disney example, just to finish that up. 120 is my current strike price on the call option. So I could be forced to sell it over the next several months if it breached above $120. It’s around $118 as we speak.

Well, I can buy a call option and get more upside. I can buy more stock. I mean, there’s a there’s a lot of things that I can do. It takes a little extra work, and you have to kinda know what you’re doing, but this is what I teach.

And, at this point, you know, it’s like it’s already worked out. Or as they say, in Disney, they live happily ever after. And you can do this with any stock, any ETF. I do it on the Dow (DIA). I do it on the (QQQ).

I think Nasdaq’s kinda stuck the way the S&P 500 is as of right now, and that’s where I say, hey, no fast moves. Let the market tell me. The charts will be the best indication of that.

So let me stop there and see which of those rabbit holes you may wanna go down a little bit more. And when I say rabbit holes, I don’t mean Bugs Bunny because that’s not Disney.

RS: I was just making a Bugs Bunny reference the other night about the Hollywood Bowl scene. So I appreciate that take. What rabbit hole do you wanna go down on most? What what do you think would bring the most valuable for the most amount of investors?

RI: I would like to list the different ways in which I am managing risk in the current environment. And then, I will kinda conclude with a little bit more on why technical analysis is not voodoo, and I’ll use examples.

RS: Let’s do it.

RI: Alright. Good. So and I should just interject here, as well. This is what I write about a lot. I refer to it as the what, the when, and the how of investing. The what is okay. You have to come up with a watch list.

What do you like? I like the Dow stocks. It doesn’t mean I wanna buy them all the time. I wanna own the right stock at the right time, same with ETFs. So I owned or I should say I’ll follow the Dow thirty very closely.

I follow about another 10 to 20 stocks that kinda rotate in and out as my wildcards. And, you know, I follow a good chunk of the ETF market. But, frankly, a lot of this stuff is getting to the point where everything correlates.

So I think the best thing I can tell people right now is when you’re in the what stage, as I call it, you’re building a watch list of stocks and ETFs that you would be willing to own at a price.

In my case, it could be I mean, I use Seeking Alpha factor grades. I use the great work of Jack Bowman and Kenny O’Fantes who now, work with me as part of the Sungarden umbrella, if you will, in the investing group.

And, the so the what, to me, the list has to shrink. You shouldn’t be following hundreds of stocks because a lot of them are gonna move alike. Just look at how tech stocks move en masse. Just look at how large cap stocks move en masse, small caps.

Yeah. Of course, there’s always outliers. But the correlation amongst investments right now, even between markets, is as high as I think I’ve ever seen it.

And the reasons are understandable. It’s the algorithms. It’s the indexing, etcetera. I think it’s something like 90% of the stock market volume now is indifferent. Doesn’t care what it owns, like I said before. So that’s the what stage.

Then you get to the when, and the when is when I incorporate the charting. And we’d probably have to do a whole thing on on my approach to technical analysis.

It’s not traditional, I would say. It does rely on things like moving averages and something called our price percent oscillator PPO, which is my favorite momentum indicator.

But a lot of it is simply just trying to sift through and be a tough grader to not just jump into things because, because the market looks like it might reward you for a second.

So that’s the what and the when, and then it comes down to the how. And so when it comes to risk management, whether it’s the ROAR score I mentioned before, you know, x percent in stocks and the rest is in T bills.

That’s the simplest form of it. But, look. Cash is still T bills. Part of the ROAR score with with the spy and the bill. It T bills are still yielding over 4%. I don’t know why people blow that off.

Bonds, at this point, you have to be really careful. I can tell you that personally, I built and have been building, I’ll write about this some more, a treasury bond ladder. But that’s a part of a retirement thing in order to insulate myself from the fact that markets are less reliable long term vehicles for growth given what’s happened in the last fifteen years and and how they’re controlled now.

I’m gonna pick my spots a little bit more. Then there’s position sizing. Like I said, if I’m gonna own a stock or an ETF and I wanna own it in size, I’m probably gonna collar it these days. And I don’t know when that’s gonna end because the collars are just working too well.

I don’t wanna have to reconsider it because they blew earnings or the market doesn’t like the sector. I mean, a good example of that, recently, First Solar (FSLR). I wrote about it in an article.

People can see it there. But, you know, did really well with it very quickly, quickly moved the put strike up, to to capture most of the gain. But, you know, stocks been like a yo yo because it’s political football among other things.

So, you know, again, just because not every stock has gone through this, at some point, they’re probably all gonna go through it, and people have to decide, do I want that ten, twenty, 50% hit up and down?

It just costs you a lot of time. So position sizing puts less money at risk. Tactical management makes it so you can be a little bit more artful with this stuff, and then, of course, all the stuff I mentioned with the options.

And so where does all this lead me to today? The markets themselves at the broad level seem to be at a a stage of pause. Not that it means a whole lot to me. I think it means more to other people, but I had a trading range at the beginning of this year for the S&P of 6,800 to 4,000, and end of the year price target at 4,800, I think it’s all still on the table.

I think that the second half of this year, particularly once you get into the ghoulish months of September, October, November, I think, could be a lot more dangerous than maybe what’s imminent.

But at the same time, we’ve had a really strong run in general. At the same time, I look at things. I mentioned AMD before. There are a bunch of other names that I’m gonna be trying to bring out, stocks and to some degree ETFs, but stocks especially that actually look like they could be part of what I call my long term contrarian bucket.

It’s a live portfolio like almost everything else I do. And the idea is stocks that I think can double in three years. 100% gain of within three years.

And that seems like it wouldn’t make sense with an overall cautious market view, but remember what I said before. The average S&P stock is up the same amount. It’s like 5% a year, and the broad S&Ps of 8% a year.

So the most bullish thing I can say here is despite all the caution and the risk management overlay on everything that we’re doing at Sungarden, at the same time, the best bullish argument is that sometimes this can be in market history an extended pause that refreshes, earnings catch up, etcetera.

And you get to the point where, hey. You know what? If they didn’t go down at this point and the company stayed healthy, maybe not the ones at the very top of the market cap weightings, but we’ll see.

I mean, look. I’m open to anything. And I do see more and more stocks starting to look like maybe they’re not forming long term, I should say short term bottoms, but they are they are forming what appear to be long term bottoms.

But like I said, every decision for me is saying, okay. I know I can have a shot to make money on this all the time. How much risk am I taking?

And I just try to, over and over and over, try to go either to the lower risk possibilities because they can all make money, rather take lower risk, or when I think the risk is still high, Disney example recently mentioned for Solar.

There there have been some others like that. And I am going to put a clamp on it. I’m gonna make it so that I do not wanna lose more than probably 5 to 7% on a single position if I’m taking that position in size.

The collar helps me do that. Tactical management helps me do that. Position sizing helps me do that. Maybe I’ll lose more, but maybe a smaller amount of money.

So at the end of the day, this is about dollars. It’s not about relative return to me. And so, especially in semi retirement. I think my retired, baby boomer colleagues will probably agree.

You may speak in percentages when you’re making the money, but when you’re dialing it down a little bit and you get a little bit older and start spending more of it, you really wanna make sure that the dollars keep going up.

And to me, the best way to do that is risk management, and the best risk management tool is technical analysis. Maybe not by the book in my case, but, it’s worked for thirty something years or forty four if you go back to when my late father taught me.

RS: What would you say are the risks to your strategy? What, if anything, are you trying to – I know that you talked about why you decided on these parameters, but what would you say is something that you try to be aware of even within this strategy?

RI: That is an awesome question, and it deserves an answer. And one day, I’m gonna give you one. No. Just kidding. So there’s there’s really a couple things. First, what markets reward could change.

And, frankly, this is how I got here, and I think, have managed risk pretty well through to 2020. The main portfolio is running. Actually, it made a little bit when the market fell by 34% in five weeks. Earlier this year, I mean, with the help of the collars, my aggressive portfolio was basically flat in a minus 20 for the S&P, and I had that much capital left to for for whatever this rebound turns out to be, whether it’s over or not.

And and that’s the whole idea. If you have $100, you would like to keep yourself as close to $100 as possible and not drop to 80 or 70 or 60 and say, it’s okay. It’ll make up for itself in the end.

You lose all that time, and you make emotional decisions. So to me, again, the chart discipline is one part of it. On the other hand, the charting has changed over time because with the market’s reward has changed over time.

So many more people are using charts. So good example, a lot of people use daily and weekly charts. My favorite is a three day chart. You know why? Because almost nobody uses it, and it’s easy to pull up. That’s a quick one.

So that’s part of it. And I think the other is just not getting caught up in the hype and the BS that kinda surrounds investing now. Everybody’s an expert and whatever. Stay humble and use the tools that we now have.

The option collars are certainly part of it, but even something as simple as, on a weekly or a monthly or quarterly basis, even daily, whatever your time frame is, have something that you can build for yourself that you are comfortable with that is the the similar to how I use the ROAR score.

I can wake up every day, and I can run through my charts and look at news and look at all my stuff on Seeking Alpha and the whole thing and answer every comment I can get to except the really rude ones. And, I will be able to say, as we sit here today, I’m a 40. I wish I were 40, but my ROAR score is 40.

What will it be a week from now? Could be a little higher. Could be a little bit lower. It’s not gonna be 100. It’s probably not gonna be zero. But that to me is risk management, and it can be applied to anything.

And when people read my articles and, frankly, with the influence, I think I’m starting to have on Kenny or Jack, when they read their stuff, more of it is being influenced by this simple idea that, hey, anything can go up, but jeez, fundamental analysis, it’s still useful, but it’s not as useful as it used to be.

I think that we’re seeing that over and over, and maybe the best example is earlier this year. With that frenetic activity, did anybody care what the fair value of your stocks were? I don’t think so. And I think that is more the rule than the exception in how markets are going to move going forward.

So we might as well embrace the times and start by managing risk and then try to make as much as we freaking can, which has always been my goal. I just use a different toolbox now than maybe I did ten, fifteen years ago. I’ve expanded it, and I’ve evolved it. And that is what I hope for all investors.

RS: I was gonna say an addendum to the stay humble advice, which is always very salient advice, is I think stay curious to your point of this evolution of the markets that you’ve been really calling to attention for investors over at least the past year that we’ve been talking.

Talking about this evolution of the markets, we had a guest on recently talking about why buy and hold is dead. I think as we watch the world unfold and change, as we watch markets unfold and change, it really behooves us to stay curious and attentive even if we’re paying for a service, staying curious and attentive of how they’re coordinating their strategies of how they’re really making it work.

Because as you said, things can change very quickly, and we need to stay cognizant of how things are gonna change and what we have to do to navigate that, I think.

What would you say is something that you’re coming up, in terms of subscribers, to I also wanted to just clarify. You write under Sungarden Investment Publishing. Those are your free articles on Seeking Alpha, and you had a name change recently. Right?

Sungarden Investors Club is now the name of your investing group. What are your subscribers mostly talking about these days, or what are they mostly concerned about these days?

RI: And just quickly, the reason that we changed to Sungarden Investors Club is because the folks who joined us since we started last November, it’s more like a club. It’s not a maybe not a social club so much. But An inclusive club. It’s very inclusive for those who are serious.

It’s about that old adage about giving people a fish and they eat for a day, teach them to fish and they eat for a lifetime. We’re trying to teach people to fish for investments.

Try to be different than the masses of retail investors in two respects. Ironically, the two words are AI, but this is not artificial intelligence. You know what they are? Arrogance and ignorance. Those are the two things that screw up investors more than anything.

So the first thing that we try to do with with people in the club is to give them, let’s say, a new a new set of boundaries, a new set of of guardrails around decision making.

And, that’s where the ROAR and all the other forms of risk management. And then from there, we have tactical portfolios for stocks and ETFs. I have my long term contrarian basket that I’m building, and I put all my own money into this. So they’re getting a look through.

So what do they really appreciate? I think as much as anything, it’s our live Tuesday sessions every 4pm eastern time. They’re supposed to go an hour. They usually go an hour and a half. And that’s where there’s interaction. And sometimes I’ll sit back and be like, hey, folks. This is great. I feel like I’m running an investment committee. We’re trying to give people kind of an oasis from the, what are your picks?

Because, sure, you’ll get picks. But having process and having it explained in plain terms and with plenty of content and structure around it so that you can decide on your own, that’s why they call them DIY, do it yourself investors.

It means you try to seek out the best resources, and then ultimately, you do it yourself or you hire somebody. But for the most part, people are joining or people would say, okay. I wanna do it myself, but I need something other than the same old, same old, it’ll buy 15% yielders and hope that you don’t lose three times as much in price every time the markets go down, all that stuff.

There’s obviously a market for that. It’s very popular. We are a little bit more of a needle in a haystack because we are approaching this really like an investor’s club, but, of course, we’ve got all the research behind it.

In addition to appreciating price trend analysis, technical analysis a bit more, the other thing I think because you’d asked before about what are people like, I get more questions on option collars.

Questions, thank yous, etcetera. It’s great. It’s starting to make me realize that people do care about risk management. It’s just that nobody has ever told them, just like Steve Jobs’ old quote. People don’t know what you want until they show it to them.

And for decades, people have been able to use options in this way. I’m just trying to simplify it and make it so that you never have to say, gee, I’m sorry. I invested in that. I had no idea it was gonna fall so much. So what if it falls that much? You get right back up and you try again, but you’re not doing it with 80, 70 cents on the dollar. Maybe you’re doing it with 98, 95, or 93. And it makes a difference over time, not only to the the wallet or the portfolio value, but to the psyche and the emotional aspect of investing.